keiichi: i guess i agree, it makes sense only after measurement... (again) see above inre: measurement --- awfulhak gives channel operator status to dmlb --- awfulhak gives channel operator status to jlemon --- awfulhak gives channel operator status to josefk also, it highly depends on application, how many PCI cards you have, apps, whatever. <-- goofy6 has quit (ircII/tkirc) dillon challenges current incorrect focus of SMPng. lots of discussion of preemption, priority inversion, thread migration, interrupts, etc, etc, etc... dillon is going back to giant lock concept??? from what I seem to follow is that dillon doesn't like interrupt threads. itojun: this I believe has mostly to do with what preempts what--more to do with policies for migrating, and light-weight threads --> bright (bright@sneakerz.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> aDe (ident@hub.lovett.com) has joined #kernelsummit --- ircd.lightning.net gives channel operator status to bright --- ircd.lightning.net gives channel operator status to aDe itojun: this is mostly an argument about thread scheduling do you switch process thread (or process) every time you get interrupt? it's an edge case <-- josefk has quit (Killed (irc.exodus.net (irc.isdnet.fr <- ircd.lightning.net[207.45.69.70]))) --> josefk_ (~joe@genesis.tao.org.uk) has joined #kernelsummit jlemon, inspired, suggests drawing a picture i don't understand. how frequently bsdi trick (proper kernel thread invocation on interrupt) happen? jake: ``It's about correctness'' dillon: ``No it's not'' I think that people should start throwing candy. I think we should go to dinner * jlemon seconds rwatson. food food food food food beer beer beer beer jhb wants coke jhb is nisane nisane? perhaps insane? * rwatson runs. jhb is not going to say anything else at the risk of losing my temper jhb is a bit like caesar, he refers to himself in the third person. jhb goes, sees, and conquers. I wish dillon would shut up and give jake a turn at the board. hey, peter's back. he's been here since dillon started s/and.*$// * bsdimp heads starts to spin. * jlemon hears "optimize" and tunes out everything after that. * rwatson enjoys the use of the word ``bust'' in the same sentence as ``cache''. * rwatson types ``cash'' and ponders dinner. 10 minutes * rwatson watches dillon mow over itojun. have a good dinner. I'm too sleepy. I'll go to bed. ume: sounds wise <-- awfulhak has quit (Client Exiting) rwatson : i think that's the general jargon :Q aha, you are still awake... i assumed that you woke up early * keichii_ needs food we need to leave for dinner? <-- keichii_ has quit (BitchX: the new hardcore, psycho, nitro client -- in a can) <-- jlemon has quit (following keichii...) <-- BigFork has quit (food now) <-- itojun has quit (Leaving) <-- rwatson has quit (doof) <-- hosokawa has quit (Remote closed the connection) <-- bsdimp has quit (food is near) <-- ume has quit (irchat exiting...) <-- kjc has quit (Leaving) --> poseiden (poseiden@66.64.12.250) has joined #kernelsummit <-- DrZiplok_ has quit (ircII/tkirc) --> julian (~julian@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit <-- julian has quit (Client Exiting) <-- originat has quit (ircII+tkirc2) --> dwhite- (dwhite@cust-P5-R7-64.POOL.ESR.SJO.wwc.com) has joined #kernelsummit --> ppl- (crow@pix142166194095.nbtel.net) has joined #kernelsummit --- irc.emory.edu gives channel operator status to dwhite- --- tmm gives channel operator status to tmm2 <-- tmm has quit (sleep) --> adrian (adrian@node16292.a2000.nl) has joined #kernelsummit moo baaa --> stalker (stalker@feerbsd.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> hsu (hsu@idiom.com) has joined #kernelsummit <-- ppl- (crow@pix142166194095.nbtel.net) has left #kernelsummit is anything going on? Terry wants to know. <-- hsu (hsu@idiom.com) has left #kernelsummit <-- aDe has quit (*zot*) roto whoops, there goes my root password :( * adrian hax0rs the new server * josefk_ changes the password. dang * josefk_ blows raspberries at Adrian. <-- Roamer` has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds) if you didn't tell us that was the root password we wouldn't have guessed well I figured that I needed to change it anyway so there was no harm in giving you all 3 seconds to try and hack in. :) so that's why I got in, must have got in, in the first two seconds :) damn you - look at the mess you've made ;) I need to commit some ports this weeked can't be in bsd all the time anymore I need to _relax_ this weekend. heh --- tmm2 gives channel operator status to adrian --- tmm2 gives channel operator status to josefk_ --- tmm2 gives channel operator status to poseiden things finished here? I think so stupid netsplits dwhite-: someone said that it starts again 15:00 tomorrow (their time). I guess they have sessions to attend, etc. :) I think that that's 7pm GMT. 2 hours, not too bad dwhite-: They're getting ready for a party tonight. * dwhite- plays with wget josefk_: I think it actually is 11:00 EST (16:00 UTC?) wow, asami lives time for winblows :( <-- poseiden has quit (poseiden) --> tmm3 (lzlzth@pD900C6B5.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit --- tmm2 gives channel operator status to tmm3 <-- tmm2 has quit (...) --> tmm2 (bwcqud@pD900C6B5.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit --- tmm3 gives channel operator status to tmm2 <-- tmm3 has quit (...) <-- tmm2 has quit ('night) <-- josefk_ has quit (Client Exiting) --> paradr0id (eric@toxic.magnesium.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> homos3x (uucp@200.41.85.22) has joined #kernelsummit homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex omosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex mosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex h osex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex ho sex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex hom ex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homo x homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homos homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homose homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex omosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex mosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex h osex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex ho sex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex hom ex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homo x homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homos homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homose homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex omosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex mosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex h osex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex ho sex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex hom ex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homo x homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homos homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homosex homose <-- homos3x (uucp@200.41.85.22) has left #kernelsummit --- greid sets ban on *!*@200.41.85.22 --> dannyboy_ (dannyboy@adsl-151-205-126-247.chlstn.adsl.bellatlantic.net) has joined #kernelsummit <-- dannyboy_ has quit ([x]chat) <-- nephrozym has quit (Client Exiting) --> Evil-Bill (wpaul@brak.osd.bsdi.com) has joined #kernelsummit --> Holocaine (benno@CPE-61-9-137-172.vic.bigpond.net.au) has joined #kernelsummit Tomorrow is the last day. <-- Debolaz has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) <-- Evil-Bill has quit (Leaving) --> desrt (desrt@pc-12-146.mountaincable.net) has joined #kernelsummit <-- paradr0id has quit (Ping timeout: no data for 243 seconds) --> paradr0id (eric@toxic.magnesium.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> rwatson (~rwatson@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit <-- paradr0id has quit (ircd.east.gblx.net irc.east.gblx.net) <-- wca has quit (ircd.east.gblx.net irc.east.gblx.net) --> wca (will@casimir.physics.purdue.edu) has joined #kernelsummit --> d4 (~dana@typhon.eng.utah.edu) has joined #kernelsummit hmm bla bla can I help you? oh eh sorry... playing with term shit <-- Holocaine (benno@CPE-61-9-137-172.vic.bigpond.net.au) has left #kernelsummit <-- wca has quit (Ping timeout: no data for 974 seconds) --> wca (will@casimir.physics.purdue.edu) has joined #kernelsummit <-- dwhite- has quit (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations) --> poseiden (poseiden@66.64.12.254) has joined #kernelsummit <-- poseiden has quit () someone op me --- cmc gives channel operator status to rwatson --- rwatson has changed the topic to: http://blitzkrieg.blackened.com/~dima/IrcLog (next session: 11amEST) --> dwhite- (dwhite@cust-P5-R7-64.POOL.ESR.SJO.wwc.com) has joined #kernelsummit <-- rwatson has quit (Client Exiting) --> rwatson (~rwatson@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit <-- dwhite- has quit (irc.exodus.net ircd.east.gblx.net) <-- wca has quit (irc.exodus.net ircd.east.gblx.net) <-- d4 has quit (irc.exodus.net ircd.east.gblx.net) --> wca (will@casimir.physics.purdue.edu) has joined #kernelsummit --> dwhite- (dwhite@cust-P5-R7-64.POOL.ESR.SJO.wwc.com) has joined #kernelsummit --> d4 (~dana@typhon.eng.utah.edu) has joined #kernelsummit --> micky35 (~paul@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit <-- micky35 has quit (ircII+tkirc2) Obtained from: USENIX Emporium, Cheap Tricks Department <-- greid has quit (Remote closed the connection) <-- dwhite- has quit (sleepy time) <-- rwatson has quit (Client Exiting) <-- dmlb has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds) --> dmlb (~dmlb@pc1-camb6-0-cust228.cam.cable.ntl.com) has joined #kernelsummit --> winter_ (winter@sasami.jurai.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> gehicks (~gehicks@adsl-64-166-87-247.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> tmm_ (hgvwxy@p3E9C2F9E.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit anyone have logs? yeah well, at dima's page http://people.freebsd.org/~dd/ks.pt1 <-- tmm_ has quit (ircII EPIC4-1.0 -- Are we there yet?) <-- gehicks has quit (zzz) --> Debolaz (~debolaz@c224s39h16.upc.chello.no) has joined #kernelsummit --> tmm_ (gpfmxj@pD900C66C.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> BigSpoon (~john@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> Roamer` (roam@diskworld.nanolink.com) has joined #kernelsummit <-- winter_ has quit (Ping timeout: no data for 247 seconds) <-- BigSpoon has quit (off to a talk) --> wkb (~wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) has joined #kernelsummit <-- wkb has quit ([x]chat) --> wkb (~wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) has joined #kernelsummit <-- wkb has quit ([x]chat) --> bsdimp (~imp@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> wkb (~wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl) has joined #kernelsummit <-- Roamer` has quit (hm) <-- tmm_ has quit (reboot) http://people.freebsd.org/~jhb/summit/ --> BigSpoon (~john@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit http://www.freebsd.org/~jhb/summit/schedule.txt --- wkb is now known as freebie --> groggy (~grog@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit OK, guys, how about an opfest? --> tmm_ (jexfox@pC19EBF84.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> tmm3 (mxggas@pC19EBF84.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #kernelsummit * groggy notes that the conference is about to start. * groggy wanders off. --> rwatson (~rwatson@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit g'morning all --> nik (~nik@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit Morning? Almost dinner time here ;-) <-- Debolaz has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) --> Debolaz (~debolaz@c224s39h16.upc.chello.no) has joined #kernelsummit <-- nik has quit () --- tmm_ is now known as tmm2 --> gjvc (gjvc@extremis.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> missnglnk (missnglnk@hydrant.informationwave.net) has joined #kernelsummit --> EvilPete (h0h0magic@elvis.mu.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> keichii_ (~keichii@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> nik (~nik@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit --> awfulhak (~brian@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit * bsdimp notes that usenix' network goes down at 2pm today. It is now 11:10 * awfulhak notes that the topic should be changed to http://people.freebsd.org/~jhb/summit/schedule.txt Hmm, if that schedule is about right, we'll miss most :( How we count "1 2 3 10" ok keichii demonstrates "new math" next time I will tell everyone to be here at 9am maybe then they will be here by 11 you're an optimist.. --> jkh_ (~JordanHub@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit bah ba holocane bah sound off! imp! Warner Losh --> dfr (~dfr@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit Hi hmm, is someone videotaping this as it was planned? not yet --> sos (~sos@212.242.86.115) has joined #kernelsummit powerpc: openfirmware progress in the kernel.. powerpc: looking to do ddb over ethernet for lack of a serial console (keichii) powerpc: locore 1/2 done, pmap close to done G4 only for powerpc. after the network goes down, irc server: 10.0.1.171:6667. remember to switch to adhoc first. power: hopefully single user by 5.0 Single user by 5.0 powerbook titanium ibook 7410 robert asks about the ABI? embedded or other? no abi has been been pciked embedded being used now linux uses svr4 embedded in use now. SVR4 maybe in the future --> micky60 (~paul@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit bill paul arrives endian indendent ffs <-- micky60 (~paul@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has left #kernelsummit linear independent file system like ffs maybe we need to beat up on kirk for this --> originat (~paul@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit s/linear/endian/ netbsd is endian independent. netbsd has an endian independent file system either specify (possibly indirectly by the magic number) specify the endianness of the file system peter wants them to be compile time option "bisexual ffs option" dfr thinks we should use a fixed endian file system <-- originat has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) jake wants newfs to pick booting probably requires the native boot order (imp) g4 and g3 powerbook support. then embedded platforms. another option is to be able to compile an alternate filesystem.. eg: "ffs" = native, "beffs" = big endian, "leffs" = little endian eg: on i386: mount -t beffs /dev/sparcdisk0 ia64 (doug) status and that encapsulates the byte swapping into a seperate code module single user in emulation mode in simulator, singleuser mode and we gets a signal signals seem to work two stacks need to cope stacks grow downards, but register stack grows up. auto on regular stack. a bit sparc register windows. explanation of the ia64 register stack engine and spilling ot memory "how much is that in bytes" --> Storm- (~veers@24.101.36.233.on.wave.home.com) has joined #kernelsummit pete says mozilla goes up to 1200 frames deep. guard page threads library rwaton suggests looking at linux's ia64 stuff seconds tack near end of maxstack woot, a tripod! --> GlockaDe (ident@hub.lovett.com) has joined #kernelsummit grog found a tripod -- the meeting pauses while we bikeshed about where it goes * jkh_ sighs in relief at not having to hold the camera anymore loader jkh_: heh runs on hardware trying to get ficl work needing to debug setjmp/longjmp debugging setjmp/longjmp once loading, then bring it up on a real machine next step is booting a kernel on a real machine dfr has a real machine dfr has access to a real machine toolchain issue toolchain issues with gcc 3.0 c++has big issues toolchain crossbuilding a real userland awfulhak: I didn't "find" a tripod, I brought it half way round the world. single user on real hardware by 5.0 single user before 5.0 smt (4 cpus sorta on one die) asks about scalability plan ahead ibm interested in 96cpu. powerpc at least 32 cpus not sure that should be public info possibly :) coffie coffe is here coffee coffee arrives... coffee's important ! * BigSpoon notes we are slipping on the schedule talk schedule or 5.0 release schedule talk schedule signature! I think I'll delegate questions to the end of each section from now on BigSpoon: we may need a talking stick. powerpc beeno --> originat (~paul@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit working his way through the probe ppc32 * BigSpoon notes 5 minutes to the break for the end of the first session little endian? * BigSpoon hopes jake's sparc64 update isn't long :) nether netbsd nor freebsd works on ppc64 american coffee :-( groggy will doing it on his occasional basis limited number of trusted people can be given access * nik notes that mail coming from freebsd.org appears to have stalled. to a dual ppc64 machine brothel valley wineries ultra5 sparc65 port from jake remote access to an ultra5, no local box yet jake into file system issues. bsdimp: Barossa. definitely single user by 5.0 single user by 5.0 bsdimp: But McLaren Vale is closer. stack is the same window register don't change things too much. aiming for sparc64 pci based machines obrien doens't want sbus support :) most sparc64's are pci obrien can cope :-) Ade Lovett will provide access to an e4500 8 cpu's and 16 gigs of ram (*envy*: bk) lots of native devices might be sbus ethernet and video cards sam leffler raises the point that we may need sbus whether we want it or not need sbus for video need sbus for built-in NICs etc greg lehey goes to a talk but leaves his laptop behind attendees immediately set upon it and dissassemble it for spare parts yikes --> julian (~julian@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit obrien arrives obrien appears hung-over the room goes quiet - nothing to speak about now !!! ka-64 obrien is put on the spot msobrien squi whoops november gcc 3.0 into tree needed for ka-64 maybe not in 5.0 but b=may need 3.0+ for ka-64 so that may not be in the tree. to summarize, sparc and ppc will be single user mode by 5.0 obrien isn't sure about x86-64 though ia64 is already single-user (woohoo!) bigspoon raises strongarm michael raises the issue that netbsd doesn't support the SA1110 which is what he has hardware access to * wca yawns http://people.freebsd.org/~jhb/summit/schedule.txt for those not here.. ...and silence falls over the crowd? =P jhk talking (not intersting) * jkh_ kicks julian under the table imp discusses which ARM machines might be good targets the most likely arm target may be the ipaq dfr suggests that we don't do arm unless someone wants to pay for it BigSpoon: s/pay/use/ money is always welcome david talks about gcc 3.0 discussion movess to tool-chain he wants it in 5.0 so we don't rip up C++ abi changes in 5.x-stable thank you osf you guys sound like a bunch of baseball game announcers s/osf/fsf David says that the C++ ABI has changed.... for gcc 3 david compains about wrs newer binutils imported now reports that we have been running a new binutils new binutils will support ia64 more commits coming jkh asks about java support jkh asks about gcc java suppport libjava * BigSpoon notes majoe schedule slippage kinda sorta works, but sucks. BigSpoon : i think it is ok java support in 3.0 sucks, so says obrien conclusion: raise this issue on the java mailing list and see how much interest there is in the current state of 3.0's java support jkh and others point out that this is not kernel we begin discussion of devd imp will lead this discussino lunch from 1 to 2 btw * jkh_ thwaps julian and notes that it was tangental to the gcc 3.0 import question what is devd's scope? should it manage devfs should it be a policy manager yesterday the consensus was that it should simply be a unified and genericied pccard + usbd phk wants devd to require permissions to the kernel obrien notes hung over from bad jkh supplied pizza, not good beer. h groggy = obrien now julian speaks from the devfs point of view obrien notes that bsdimp was alomost right, gcc 3._1_ is first gcc with basic ka64 support, not 3.0 --> jedgar (jedgar@peitho.fxp.org) has joined #kernelsummit hallo jedgar newcard sucks as imp admits and he has funding for devd Summary: devd,though originally an idea from the devfs world, will eventually do a lot more than devfs stuff, actually it isnt' really related to devfs.. it's orthogonal in fact most it will work exactly the same without devfs of the actions will be devfs indepentent.. it will be an 'event handler and translater' --> deo (~obrien@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit it's actually mroe of a new-bus eventhandler ether devices don't have /dev entries right now for example more generic than just new-bus events, I'd like to be able to support events like overheat warnings etc discussin on h what systems have hot-swap capability originat: that's acpi stuff and will probably be part of a healthd i'll raise that issue in a bit though discussion mentions a devfsd which would handle the devfs management things like phk are worried about obrien gets preempted from grog's laptop groggy arrives.. hrmm, i thought you were on the 5th floor? i just saw groggy here on the 4th floor jordan switches tapes After a quick experiment, I confirm that DEVFS mounts can have independent ownerships and permissions for a device groggy takes pictures * deo snuck awayfrom grogg's laptop when he closed xchat accidently and could not figure out the window manager... * deo whistles innocently. 10.0.1.171:6667 after 2pm right? wca: yes forget it, i don't have my own wireless card anyways and i have other plans anyways * BigSpoon notes the conversation wanders off to devfs in jails grog takes pictures for evidence.. Evil BSD Conspiracy <-- deo has quit (bye) * wca notes wireless cards are due at 1pm for those who rented them :( wca: doh --> kaworu (~ems@tserver.conference.usenix.org) has joined #kernelsummit yeah fuck that crap --- kaworu is now known as ems_ hey bigspoon: hope you don't have a rented one ;\ bigspoon: doubt you would buy a wavelan gold though ;p * jkh_ pats his integral wireless yeah yeah your new titanium how's the new job? great so far comfy? ;) but then, I've only worked there 2 days before taking off. :) wca: I have a spare wireless card if you want to borrow it. actually, I have a spare wireless card also groggy: i think other people could use it more than me but the network shuts down at 2pm so it's not like you'll get much use * groggy smacks the notwork. I discuss the 'device symlnk' method of avoiding having a devfs for every jail --> fenestro (fenner@electricrain.com) has joined #kernelsummit jkh: yeah, you can use ad-hoc w/ 10.0.1.171 port 6667 not that there's much point julian paints the bikeshed green * groggy wants external connectivity. since most of the interested ppl would be in (what room are you in again?) * groggy sends out for yellow paint. I could provide dialup. :P * groggy smacks pccardd. picture of groggy taking pictures of everyone at the summit: http://people.freebsd.org/~fenner/groggy.jpg Grr. It's not seeing my flash card. hi bill fenner ;) hi will andrews 8) discussion moves temporarily to JAIL stuff again, where are you guys ? Maine, on the 5th floor you must be on the 4th floor ? oh 5th wca: 5th floor, maine room hmm, kay wca: 5th floor. wca: You need to take the lift. across the hall from new hampshire room that we were originally scheduled for grog: i saw you pass by the laptop room and they announced your arrival not much later wca: Turn left when you come out of the lift. okay has it started already? i've gotta eat lunch anyways * groggy wonders if his laptop will freeze when he ejects the flash. Anybody else planning lunch? ems: the summit started at 11am boston time ok, thanks * BigSpoon waits for devfs + jail wind down * groggy ejects his card. we're vaguely following http://people.freebsd.org/~jhb/summit/schedule.txt * groggy smacks pccardd again. <-- groggy has quit (rebooting--grrr) i've been logging #kernelsummit since early friday anyone who wants the log just send me a mail