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<BigSpoon> foo
<rwatson> bar
--- Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).
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<nik> Bing
--- rwatson has changed the topic to: --
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<BigSpoon>             _              _       _                      
<BigSpoon>  _ __   ___| |_ ___ _ __  (_)___  | | __ _ _ __ ___   ___ 
<BigSpoon> | '_ \ / _ \ __/ _ \ '__| | / __| | |/ _` | '_ ` _ \ / _ \
<BigSpoon> | |_) |  __/ ||  __/ |    | \__ \ | | (_| | | | | | |  __/
<BigSpoon> | .__/ \___|\__\___|_|    |_|___/ |_|\__,_|_| |_| |_|\___|
<BigSpoon> |_|                                                       
<bsdimp> exec -o banner bigknife sucks
<rwatson>  ____   _         ____                       _                          
<rwatson> | __ ) (_)  __ _ / ___|  _ __    ___   _ __ | | __ __      __ __ _  ___ 
<rwatson> |  _ \ | | / _` |\___ \ | '_ \  / _ \ | '__|| |/ / \ \ /\ / // _` |/ __|
<rwatson> | |_) || || (_| | ___) || |_) || (_) || |   |   <   \ V  V /| (_| |\__ \
<rwatson> |____/ |_| \__, ||____/ | .__/  \___/ |_|   |_|\_\   \_/\_/  \__,_||___/
<rwatson>            |___/        |_|                                             
<rwatson>  _                      
<rwatson> | |__    ___  _ __  ___ 
<rwatson> | '_ \  / _ \| '__|/ _ \
<rwatson> | | | ||  __/| |  |  __/
<rwatson> |_| |_| \___||_|   \___|
<rwatson>                         
<rwatson> child death
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<fenestro> It's good that we're spending time on the *important* stuff now =)
<ems> indeed
<BigSpoon> fenestro: of course
<fenestro> Wait, maybe we can do a SecureDNS testbed while we're at it
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<rwatson> fenestro: hmm.  I have bind9 here and some secure zones...
<rwatson> fenestro: however, various versions of BIND barf on various zone files, so I don't know if they work together
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<fenestro> and we can all update our resolver libraries
<bsdimp> 5.0
<bsdimp> set -market-speek jkh
<bsdimp> deadline reason:
<bsdimp> Novemeber
<bsdimp> likely won't slip.
<bsdimp> 5.0 cuts off features way before
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<msmith> Fnord
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<julian> ahah!
<awfulhak> dns at 10.0.1.171
<bsdimp> FreeBSD-5.0-TRIAL-BALLOON
<rwatson> bsdimp: FreeBSD-5.0-BUBBLE-BURST
<msmith> FreeBSD-5.0-FREE-DRUG-TRIAL
<bsdimp> branch 5.1 or 5.2 time frame
<msmith> Consider the 3.x/4.x branch, what did we learn from it?
<rwatson> msmith: nothing?
<bsdimp> We rushed that branch a little so mdillon could get stuff into -current that we didn't want in 3.x
<msmith> Ouch.  Probably more true than any of us would like to agree with.
<julian> no, in 3.0 we branched too early
<bsdimp> We branched around 3.1 and should have done it than 3.2
<msmith> julian: not suggesting we should do the same as with 3.0, just wondering if we learnt anything.
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<bsdimp> banches suck
<BigSpoon> bsdimp: in cvs
<awfulhak> What's a banch ?
<msmith> ie. we need to spend 6-9-12 months in "customer focus" mode
<bsdimp> p4
<julian> "rearchitecting" is not english...
<julian> try "redesigning"
<BigSpoon> p4.. hmmm
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<bsdimp> ABI?  When is it stable?
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<bsdimp> SO implications?
<awfulhak> Oops, that dns is on 10.0.1.106 !
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<msmith> We're typically pretty anal about interface consistency anyway...
* jkh agrees
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<BigSpoon> major API changes by 5.0
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<msmith> K PLS NEW DEFECT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM K THX
<BigSpoon> msmith: T <foo>
<julian> this is core stufff, nt kernel....
<BigSpoon> well
<julian> oops NOT kenrel
<julian> kernel
<BigSpoon> there are several things that need discussion
<nik> One good thing about GNATS.  You can mirror the PR database locally, and work offline.
<msmith> nik: you can do this with Keystone as well, just mirror the mysql database
<nik> msmith: And run a local copy of mysql. . . ugh
<bsdimp> projects.freebsd.org
<bsdimp> Need a maintainer
<ems> projects.freebsd.org, I could help with that?
<bsdimp> send mail to core.
<ems> ok
<msmith> ems: that'd be handy, thanks
<ems> Alright, I'll send it when I get 'ome :-)
<msmith> ems: it needs proactive maintenance, some development and active advocation.
<ems> msmith: I'm quite interested in development
<msmith> Cool.  We've smacked our heads against project management issues so many times, and always fallen short.
<bsdimp> 200M into flash
<ems> Heh
<msmith> Meta-organisation is not "sexy" for kernel developers. 8)
<bsdimp> 5 iso
<msmith> bsdimp: IBM 1GB Microdrive
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<bsdimp> heheh
<bsdimp> msmith: You can get 2G pcmcia ata cards
<bsdimp> 1 minisio
<bsdimp> 4 packages iso
<bsdimp> a bunch of other huge set of packages
<msmith> T JKH DONUT DISCUSS SYSINSTALL, SPEAK NO EVIL OF THE DEAD K THX
<BigSpoon> sysinstall < *
<julian> Errrrr is this kernel relavent?
<msmith> julian: 5.0 tangent, needs to get reined in.
<msmith> Oh great.  FreeBSD System Base.
<julian> hey  ENOUGH ALREADY!
<msmith> Er, no they haven't.
<msmith> Laser-5, PHT, Cheapbytes, etc.
<BigSpoon> yah
<bsdimp> Those are releases of FreeBSD.
<bsdimp> They aren't "official"
<BigSpoon> dang it
<bsdimp> small semantics
<BigSpoon> I have to go the restroom
<msmith> bsdimp: er, yes, they're all the same thing
<BigSpoon> make em talk about KSE
<bsdimp> on to kse
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<bsdimp> hmmm darwin
<awfulhak> darn-bsd
<bsdimp> kse: system calls become async
<bsdimp> all things become simple kse.
<bsdimp> every time something blocks, it comes back to the same place.
<msmith> Very similar to the way that v86 mode works.
<bsdimp> proc -> 4 different procs
<bsdimp> Proc currently owns all the resources
<BigSpoon> ems: ?
<BigSpoon> grr
<BigSpoon> msmith: ?
<ems> ems: what?
<rwatson> hmm, guess I'll wait for the intro to stop before asking a question
<bsdimp> next thing owns scheduling info
<rwatson> note that this user credential behavior is incompatible with threading model on linux
<bsdimp> kseg s what is called
<bsdimp> kseG
<rwatson> note kseg name conflict
<BigSpoon> rwatson: creds are per-thread?
<bsdimp> kse
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<bsdimp> kse an empty shell onto which things are loaded to run
<BigSpoon> bsdimp: include descriptors
<BigSpoon> oh, you are, nm
<rwatson> BigSpoon: in linux, yes
<rwatson> evil stuff
<msmith> BigSpoon: you call in to the kernel to "activate" the mechanism, and a copy is made of the return context for the call.
<bsdimp> kse provides the parallelisation
<bsdimp> system call contexts get loaded into kse
<msmith> BigSpoon: the 'return context' is then recycled every time you want to re-enter the original caller.
<bsdimp> ksec
<BigSpoon> msmith: ah, yes, like the vm86 syscall stuff then
<bsdimp> <note names may change>
* ems is taking notes in latex, will post dvi if anyone wants it later
<bsdimp> ksec: kern stack
<msmith> ems: K THX
<bsdimp> ksec all state of blocked and running 
<rwatson> LaTeX perhaps
<BigSpoon> ems: spiff
<nik> ems: dillon is taking notes in plain text. .. 
<BigSpoon> latex would be good, too
<ems> nik: oh, whatever is easier
<nik> ems: dillon is taking excessive notes.
<ems> nik: Ok
<BigSpoon> we can't have too many notes
<rwatson> sorry, who is ems?
* msmith ponders why the kse/ksec division, since a ksec is just the saved contents of a kse...
<bsdimp> New systemcall.
<bsdimp> name to follow.
<bsdimp> msmith I wondered too
<ems> heh
<ems> I'm the openroot guy ;p
<BigSpoon> msmith: you tie one of them to cpu's
<rwatson> ems: sorry, didn't recognize you
<BigSpoon> the other is per-thread
<ems> rwatson: s'allright
<ems> :)
<rwatson> ems: have your paper printed out over here :-)
<ems> ems: Ok
<BigSpoon> you can have more ksec's than kse's if you have more threads than runnable scheduler contexts
<msmith> BigSpoon: so you can partition threads vs. CPUs?
<ems> ack
<ems> rwatson: cool, how did you like it?
<msmith> BigSpoon: Unf.  So the KSE is just a big way of storing an integer?
<BigSpoon> well...
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<jkh> foo
<BigSpoon> it stoers the context while you run on a cpu
<peter> julian is explaining this badly
<bsdimp> typedef int kse;
<rwatson> ems: needs some tweaking, of course, but looks like a good start.  Probably best to take to e-mail over the next week.
* jkh falls slowly onto his keyboard
<ems> rwatson: alright, will do.
<msmith> I think we want to discuss this, not have it explained.
<rwatson> jkh: we need terminology fixes, this is confusing
<BigSpoon> but if the process isn't using up all its' available kse's, you may have idle kse's not attached to any threads (ksecs)
<msmith> Since most of us that need to understand it already do.
<BigSpoon> I think
<rwatson> jkh: everything is a KSEFOO
<jkh> high level discussion PLZ K TNX
<jkh> %3GREEN%0
<bsdimp> fred
<fenestro> okbye
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<rwatson> beep goes new-kernel boy
<msmith> Mm, ok, so userland components don't present a threat to the kernel
<jkh> crash crash goes new kernel boy
<ems> eh
<rwatson> msmith: sounds good to me
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* bsdimp nominates BigSpoon for head cat hearder
<msmith> rwatson: indeed; that was my major concern
* jkh notes that BigSpoon IS the head cat herder here - this is his meeting. :)
<keichii> will we encounter the same problem with KQ?
* jkh prods BigSpoon to Assert More Effective Leadership
<keichii> in that no one wants to do the mechanical work of converting userland to KSE/KQ
<msmith> T BIGSPOON TOO TECHNICAL K THX
<msmith> keichii: Hopefully not.
<msmith> keichii: since userland doesn't need to be "converted"
<msmith> keichii: This is an assist for code that is already threaded.
<keichii> right
<BigSpoon> this is a technical meeting
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* rwatson notes he would slap in another month of dev time based on locking concerns.
<msmith> BigSpoon: ... not a classroom.
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* BigSpoon notes this is going to wreak hell on proc locking
<rwatson> BigSpoon: exactyl
<peter> BigSpoon: actually, it is a mechanical hell, not a strategic hell.
<rwatson> BigSpoon: you probably have hold the proc lock to get to the proc lock
<BigSpoon> peter: no, not really
<rwatson> :-)
* msmith wants a way of attaching a warning to a preprocessor macro expansion
<BigSpoon> peter: cause the locking strategies change
<peter> BigSpoon: lets talk about it after, I'm not sure it's that big..
<BigSpoon> peter: it's not huge
<BigSpoon> but it's different
<BigSpoon> would be easier to get it done before changing midstream
<rwatson> BigSpoon: well, certainly better to do now than later...
<BigSpoon> rwatson: not if I haev to go back and redo half the stuff I've done
<rwatson> BigSpoon: better to get it done before 5.0-RELEASE than after
<msmith> T NIK PLS COFFEE? BEG GROVEL ETC K THX
<nik> msmith: Black, white, sugar?
<msmith> nik: NATO standard (white, two)
<rwatson> XF864 sounds good to me, hope they fix the configurator
<msmith> rwatson: X -configure good
<keichii> hmm, are we going to address some administrative issues?
<rwatson> msmith: dunno, on this notebook, it would exit whenever run
<msmith> keichii: project admin?  We can probably workshop that.
* msmith worship nik
<nik> We're out of coffee
<jkh> catastrophe!
<keichii> it's only $33, somebody else pay for it?
<jkh> well, this meeting is only scheduled for another 10 minutes. :)
<keichii> oh, didnt realize that time flies by
<ems> hrm, I thought the meeting ended at five?
<jkh> even if we run 40 minutes over, we can still get good coffee downstairs
<jkh> hurm
<jkh> I thought 11-4
<jkh> maybe just wishful thinking
<nik> jkh: Downstairs does not have good coffee
<ems> heh
<jkh> I'm talking about the cappucino place
<jkh> gourmet bean
<ems> Expensive?
<jkh> their latte isn't bad
<keichii> bah humbug
<msmith> Mm.  humugs.
<msmith> Er, Humbugs.
* rwatson wonders if BigKnife knows he is the SMPng manager yet.
<jkh> bigknife was supposed to know that the minute jason quit
<julian> AAAAAARGGGHHHH!! There is no such word as "Architecting".. try "Designing" !!!!!!
<rwatson> BigKnife: we expect you to talk about the general status of SMPng, and the remaining components requiring locking, plus tell us about tasks not getting done.
* BigSpoon hates managing
* jkh prods BigSpoon
<rwatson> BigSpoon: you are the "technical manager"
<jkh> manage! manage!
* jkh chases BigSpoon around with the hair-shaping helmet
<BigSpoon> you suck
* jkh notes that BigSpoon doesn't have enough hair to point up properly
* jkh gets a wig and some hairspray
* jkh shoots groggy also
<jkh> BigSpoon: T PLZ NO PERFORMANCE DEBATE AT THIS TIIME K PLZ TNX
* BigSpoon detaches to write down some quick notes
* jkh hands BigSpoon his favorite .44 magnum
<rwatson> BigSpoon: change topic to remaining technical goals for smpng
* nik submits "K PLZ TNX" to esr for the hackers handbook
<BigSpoon> rwatson: maybe if I knew it all in detail
<rwatson> BigSpoon: where you don't have detail, assert as much.  
<jkh> BIGSPOON
<ems> su
<ems> argh
<peter> Password:
<rwatson> Permission denied.
<nik> #
<msmith> NO CARRIER
<rwatson> OK
<ems> dare i say 0wned?
<keichii> hmm
<nik> openroot
<ems> yes openroot
<keichii> isnt this a regression test and performance benchmark thing?
<keichii> i think this requires a quantitative measurement
<msmith> keichii: not really, this is a "when do we go to -STABLE" question.
<msmith> keichii: um, yeah, so yes, actually. 8)
<keichii> so, set a quantitative goal of performance gain?
<BigSpoon> it has not to be worse than 4.x at the very least
<keichii> or lowest limit of pessimization
<keichii> there, we have a goal
<nik> BigSpoon: 4.x on multi-processor, or 4.x on uni-processor?
<BigSpoon> both
<keichii> now, several usual benchmarks exist
<msmith> nik: uniprocessor *has* to be "no worse"
<keichii> networking performance, and make world time
<bsdimp> hmmm vm lock
<jkh> ls -la
<jkh> whoops
<nik> <Left 30 pixels> <Up 25 pixels> <click>
<nik> Oops
<rwatson> rm -Rf /
<rwatson> oops
<ems> cowsay -f jkh.cow
<keichii> figlet
<keichii> oops
<keichii> shall we set a performance goal now?
<rwatson> n o
<keichii> a quantitative one...
<keichii> for 5.0
<rwatson> performance testing first
<bsdimp> yes.
<bsdimp> No worse than 2x slower.
<keichii> bsdimp: .....
<bsdimp> Or 3x slower
<keichii> i am not saying that we should have a 50000% performance gain. :Q
<bsdimp> vfs.
<bsdimp> Evil.
<bsdimp> Run.
<bsdimp> Flee
<bsdimp> Panic.
<jkh> the kernel should run at a performance level > 0
<awfulhak> jkh: before or after 5.0 ?
<bsdimp> buffer cache
<jkh> e.g. it shouldn't halt periodically
<bsdimp> tty
* msmith bends bsdimp over and inserts the cardbus lock
<keichii> usb?
<msmith> keichii: most of that stuff is relatively straightforward because you have a single "owner" of the device subtree
<keichii> well, if you eliminate those, then we dont really have much left
<msmith> Mm.
<bsdimp> I thought cardbus was already locked.
<msmith> bsdimp: and loaded, I think.
<bsdimp> But if not, then that's part of newcard enhancement.
<msmith> Yeah.  I'm just pondering how tightly it's worth locking the device tree.
<awfulhak> msmith: Do you want that archive that I haven't got ?
<bsdimp> msmith: There's some interrupt blocking code that neds to happen.
<bsdimp> And also some "am I there" interface for isrs
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<msmith> bsdimp: yeah, but I think that's orthogonal to locking the device tree as a whole.
<bsdimp> right.
<BigSpoon> cardbus locking is all screwed upp
<bsdimp> BigSpoon: eh?
<dfr> device tree should just get a code lock
<bsdimp> BigSpoon: how is cardbus locking all screwed up.
<BigSpoon> well, the pccbb mutex is
<BigSpoon> :)
<msmith> dfr: code lock, or just have a lock that covers the entire device tree?
<bsdimp> ah.
<bsdimp> that's evil.
<BigSpoon> code lock?
<BigSpoon> ou could use an sx lock to protect the device tree if you want
<peter> BigSpoon: the problem is that if you insert a pccard code, it gets removed as a cardbus card. :-)
<BigSpoon> hahahahaahahaaha
<bsdimp> yes.  That sucks too.
* rwatson fears.
<bsdimp> phear the cardbus
<bsdimp> phear NEWCARD
<bsdimp> lower expectations.
* rwatson adds some items to lost cause list: irda, firewire, ...
<BigSpoon> peter: sounds like mroe mb,bpos vs. md,dpos tyle bugs :)
* peter feared the 'printf CARD_DELETE_CARD(cbdev)' (not pccarddev) when he ejected the pccard card.
<BigSpoon> rwatson: SMP..
<rwatson>    /kick BigSpoon
<rwatson> BigSpoon: AXP...
<BigSpoon> /kick rwatson
<BigSpoon> vm_mtx :)
<bsdimp> IrDA is a big rat hole
* rwatson watches EvilPete's machine crash on mention of AlfredEvil
<BigSpoon> hehehehehhehehehehe
<peter> aargh!
* BigSpoon sprinkles some PWMF dust on imp's laptop
<peter> I'll remind you that my machine has a dirct murphey-field connection to all yours via the power connections... (and wavelan)
<rwatson> julian is driving
<rwatson> (irda)
<ems> flee!
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<bsdimp> flee
<msmith>  /usr/sbin/laptop_emp *
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<bsdimp> log done
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